Help with "Sits Flat" meaning

Just received my very first collectable piece of cast iron today. One of the first things that struck me upon handling the pan is that the "sits flat" aspect of collecting cast iron could make for quite a ride (read: headache). But I am positively positive and eager to learn.

From what I gather as a new collector, no one on eBay selling CI is in a hurry to use the word "wobble" or "warped". I've noted some sellers step-around warping and wobbling with artful wordage and others deliberately omit any mention of wobbling. I really appreciate those who simply say "it's warped" or "wobbles" and give clear description of the degree of wobble.

My question is:

1. How do you define "sits flat"? Is it an understood among collectors that "sits flat" can actually mean "wobbles a bit"?

2. Are cast iron collectors more lenient as to what "sits flat" can mean the older the piece is?

The wobble on my first pan is slight (I can just slide a CD underneath the pan at 11 O'clock while the opposing side (4 O'clock) is pushed down) but it doesn't "sit flat" as the auction described.

I have nothing against wobbly pans; my concern is about bidding strong on pieces specifically because they're described as "sits flat" only to receive a pan that does not "sit flat".

To me, "sits flat" means exactly that. Put it on a hard, level surface and it sits rock solid. No movement at all.

If a pan has a wobble, I try to describe it in terms of millimeters or fractions of an inch, and measure it from the side off the surface while the opposite side is fully depressed.

Warpage can be an outward bulge (liquid in the pan runs INTO the dip),or an inward bulge (liquid runs AWAY from the hump/bulge).

About the only thing you can do is ask multiple specific questions of the seller beforehand. If you don't get satisfactory answers, walk away. If the answers turn out not to be accurate once you have the item in hand, you have the recorded communications to fall back on to facilitate a return and refund.

Since you don't have the item in hand, and the only person you can rely on is the seller, you must ask the questions in a very specific manner, e.g. "Does the bottom of the pan exhibit any warping? Is there any movement/rocking when sitting on a hard, known flat/level surface upon pressing downward on the rim at various points? If you then push sideways on the handle, does the pan spin?" If the answers are vague, keep asking questions.

Of course, that only covers downward warps. An upward bow can still "sit flat", as can a pan with a heat ring and a slight downward bow. If you want to know if it's warped upward, you have to come up with questions describing a specific scenario which the seller can perform and report the result.

If I have asked enough questions beforehand, gotten satisfactory answers, and still end up receiving a warped pan, I contact the seller and provide photos and even a video if necessary to show the defect indeed exists. When discussing the return, I communicate that, since the item was not as described in the pre-sale communications, my expectation is that I will be reimbursed for return shipping in addition to purchase price and original shipping, and keep communicating if necessary until I get a firm commitment in writing from the seller.

More thoughts on the subject at: http://www.castironcollector.com/buying.php

Thanks so much, Ken. Thank you, Doug. You're more help than you know.

I slid a CD beneath to better demonstrate where skillet lifts at 11 O'clock while my thumb depresses the opposing side at 4 O'clock diametrically. There is additional room above the CD.





The seller described it as "it is level and sits flat". It doesn't sit flat; it rocks; but I wanted to be sure I'm not being inconsiderate of the seller so thanks, guys, for your help. From what you've said, I feel more confident that (just as I felt) "sits flat" should mean "sits flat" as Ken said.

One last issue if I may..

The skillet (pre 1900s) also has an odd chunk missing from the handle support. Is this common/typical of the handle configuration of these very early pans? It looks as though a hunk was carved right out of the spine of the handle support. In person, you can tell the 'patina' or look of the exposed surface where the iron is missing looks fresher (newer) than the rest of the pan. It looks like the chunk of iron was removed from the pan at a much later date than when the pan was created; I'm not sure. Is that missing hunk typical or is that damage?





Thanks again for any help.

I guess it's all a matter of what degree of movement do you deem acceptable. My personal hard, flat, level test surface is a slab of polished granite verified with a straightedge. If you can get a pan to wobble on it, then the pan's not flat. Some might be satisfied at that. Others may also want a straightedge to check the inside as well for the opposite direction. Personally, slight upward bows don't bother me too much. A full-on spinner does, though. If I didn't spend too much on it, a pan with what I term a slight swivel is OK, too (doesn't spin, doesn't rock, but has the slightest of off-center bumps that it will "swivel" on). But getting back to what's "flat" and what's not, I think that if you can make the pan click against your known level surface by pressing down on the rim at various points, it's not.



As to that divot on the rib, I think it looks like something done with a grinder at the foundry post-casting in order to make the skillets stack better.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of lets say for a better term less that honest sellers out there. When a seller is trying to sell things online they are selling for one reason, to get your $$. Some are worse than the worst used car dealer.

Creative WORD advertising.

Then you get sellers that just do not know what and how to explain an items faults. It is just a piece of cast iron to them, they do knot know its value or history and they just want your $$.

It is all up to the buyer to be educated, or get educated. I like an educated buyer.
I second what Doug had to say, "About the only thing you can do is ask multiple specific questions of the seller beforehand." This is where the buyer needs to be educated.

My test surface is a slab of 1 1/2" polished granite.
I define "sits flat," is just that sits flat No movement at all by its own or me pressing down on it.

I define "wobble," as with movement by its own or me pressing down on it.
One can say that wobble is when you set the item down and it still has movement on its own, that could be called wobble. Caused by warpage, can be an outward bulge on the bottom of the piece.

I define "movement" ( no it does not have legs) By pressing downward on the rim at various points and measuring that space under the piece.

Being both a collector and a seller I need to be educated and to educate my buyer so that they will come back and buy more.:icon_thumbsup:

Myself, I think the word wobble is a very strong and miss defined word to most folks. But I have no problem using it if that is just what it is.

Having purchased well over 250 pieces of antique and vintage cast iron, and sold well over 175. Not ONE has come back with an issue and I have sold to some Very Large cast iron collectors that asked me a lot of ???

That is the key, knowing what to ask.
Yes, there are a few good sellers out there.

Read what Doug has of the site, just part of getting educated.

Happy Collecting!

Thanks very much, Jeffrey

The pan I received (pictured in previous posts) is beautiful and I bid extra strongly on the pan, specifically, for the reason that it was said to "Sit Flat" in the auction description. And, as you noted, less than honest sellers hope what the buyer doesn't know may increase bidding. I don't know if my seller was being less than honest; I do know the pan isn't flat, however.

My thinking as a new collector, is if I continue to accept pans that are auctioned as "Sits Flat" that in fact "Aren't Flat" upon arrival then I get the feeling I'm going to end up with a rack full of wobblers and rockers that the experienced collectors don't want really quick.

The one wise decision I made buying my first pan was to be absolutely certain to buy from a seller who offers refunds. It's going back to the seller. And I'll never buy or bid from a seller who doesn't offer a clear refund period.

Thanks again, guys, for the direction and help!

Just remember, You are the one buying, know what you are buying and ask the right questions. Hard to lose that way.

Myself, I am a hands on guy. I need to see it feel it hear it. I have bid on Iron on E-bay a few times and came out fine, did ask a few ?.

You learn something all the time.

I'm learning that quickly -- as you and Doug both state -- if nothing else, I'm learning it's my responsibility to ask questions just as equally as it's the seller's task to describe the item well.

I was really fortunate and received a top-class seller on this transaction who not only helped me with the refund process but voluntarily reimbursed (and rounded up) the return shipping cost.

Man, it's amazing how eBay can, at times, baffle you, then at times, leave you completely inspired by other people's consideration and willingness to help. I thought my wife was going to tear-up when she saw the seller bothered to address the return shipping cost. Couldn't be more impressed with the seller. Thanks again for the advice to ask questions ahead of sale.

Linn Stevens said:

I'm learning that quickly -- as you and Doug both state -- if nothing else, I'm learning it's my responsibility to ask questions just as equally as it's the seller's task to describe the item well.

I was really fortunate and received a top-class seller on this transaction who not only helped me with the refund process but voluntarily reimbursed (and rounded up) the return shipping cost.

Man, it's amazing how eBay can, at times, baffle you, then at times, leave you completely inspired by other people's consideration and willingness to help. I thought my wife was going to tear-up when she saw the seller bothered to address the return shipping cost. Couldn't be more impressed with the seller. Thanks again for the advice to ask questions ahead of sale.

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I thought my wife was going to tear-up when she saw the seller bothered to address the return shipping cost.

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Return shipping is required to be paid by the seller if the item is "SNAD" Significantly Not As Described. Depending on how you reported this to the seller. If you went through eBay's return process if the buyer doesn't want to refund you +postage, eBay will TAKE the money from them via PayPal. There's no two ways about it. It does sound like your seller was extra nice though.

I've received a number of awesome finds in the mail, only to be disappointed by receiving a cracked or fully broken piece. So, one of the things I do, as soon as I pay is send the seller a note (Using the I just want to ask the seller a question option.) explaining that cast iron is not as tough as it would seem etc etc..... and I end it with:

This website has an excellent guide on safely packaging cast iron: http://www.wag-society.org/Packing/Packing.htm

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Some people seem to pay attention to it, others will still throw a skillet in a box with 15 packing peanuts and hope for the best. Knock on wood, I haven't received a broken/cracked piece since I've been doing this.

So in short, it's not only your responsibility to ask questions, it's also your responsibility to educate your seller on the fragility of cast iron. It really sucks to feel like you've purchased the deal of the year only to have it arrive broken.

What do you do when you ship 3 skillets double boxed, with heavy card board in between each skillet and the skillets all in their own bags with heavy paper around each skillet also 2" of space in-between the skillets and the inside of the box? Then the buyer emails you that one has a broken
handle.:icon_scratchchin:


I ask for photos of the boxes, all sides. I get the photos and there is not a dent or crush anywhere on the box. I ask him how did the handle brake and that there is no dent on the box :icon_scratchchin:

I tell the buyer to take everything to the PO and put in an insurance clam. Then I offer him 15% off a new skillet.


Never hear back from him, and PO has never opened an insurance clam.

Looks like he dropped one. :biggrin:

Sellers and also Buyers, The Good Bad and ugly Every day is a new day, Have a nice one.:icon_thumbsup:

Some people are just not very trustworthy.

Jeffrey R. said:

What do you do when you ship 3 skillets double boxed, with heavy card board in between each skillet and the skillets all in their own bags with heavy paper around each skillet also 2" of space in-between the skillets and the inside of the box? Then the buyer emails you that one has a broken handle.:icon_scratchchin:

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I always photograph every box before I open it, and while opening. Probably 15 photos per box.

I've had boxes arrive with skillet handles poking out the side of the box.

I've had boxes arrive that were 3x larger than the item, and the item wrapped in 1 layer of newspaper.

I had one that took me 15 minutes to get to the pan, wrapped so well that I was SURE that there would be NO issues. The handle was almost broken completely off. This was inside layers of bubble wrap and styrofoam.







Seller was a great guy, also a collector, and walked me through what I needed to do to file a claim with USPS. (Ended up talking to him a few more times just to shoot the **it about old iron.) This is really where the photos come in handy. So far I've had to do this two times. The third time the seller just refunded. It was a large logo #8 Griswold that I got real cheap because it was dirty/rusty. Turns out it was just flash rust and the pan was perfect except for the 2" crack.

I've had items arrive in boxes that look like they'd been hit by a train, and everything was fine. Perfect boxes with broken items. For iron, it seems if any part of it can touch the box, when the box gets bumped, it gets bumped. Best is double boxing, but that's too much work to expect for most people.

The claims I made I was able to do on the USPS website. Upload photos etc.

That Hurts looking at it.:headpop:

That is only reason that I do not like to have cast iron shipped in, to many folks just do not know to pack anything right. I have no problem shipping out.