Why Wagner?

W. Hilditch

Active member
I understand that over time Wagner stole ideas, robbed patterns, made copies and compared to Griswold had inferior machining, quality control and cast iron in an effort to put out a cheaper product. So why the infatuation with Wagner?

Hilditch
 
Re: Wagner Maker's Mark?

I understand that over time Wagner stole ideas, robbed patterns, made copies and compared to Griswold had inferior machining, quality control and cast iron in an effort to put out a cheaper product. So why the infatuation with Wagner?

Hilditch

Because they are still better than what Lodge is making. That is my opinion.:eek:
 
Re: Wagner Maker's Mark?

Whether or not Wagner copied or stole competitors' designs never really bothered me. As far as machining goes the 1920's and older Sidney/Wagner skillets I've seen and used are almost as good as if not equal to their contemporary Erie/Griswold counterparts. They have thinner but taller sidewalls and bigger pouring spouts than the ones that came out later. From a practical standpoint I think the big Dumbo eared Wagners spatter less than just about anything else thanks to their taller sidewalls.

There's also the fact that (at least around where I live) higher demand has driven the prices for Griswold higher than their Wagner counterparts.
 
Re: Wagner Maker's Mark?

I do agree with the earlier Wagners were better, but went down hill.

There's also the fact that (at least around where I live) higher demand has driven the prices for Griswold higher than their Wagner counterparts.

I was just looking on eBay, rusty #10 pop-over $69. and a broken one $49.00 10 cups, not 11
 
I understand that over time Wagner stole ideas, robbed patterns, made copies and compared to Griswold had inferior machining, quality control and cast iron in an effort to put out a cheaper product. So why the infatuation with Wagner?

Hilditch

Is there an infatuation with Wagner? I didn't know there was or is.

The big players in the cast iron business were not really all that numerous and they all knew each other. Wagner, Griswold, Wapak, CHF/Favorite, Martin, Lodge, Vollrath...............they all "stole" ideas from one another, made copies, bought patterns from others, etc. Take a look at the early shallow skillets. No one has been able to tell me yet who made the first one, but they all look like they came from the same mold. As far as machining goes I have yet to find any Wagner that was less finely machined/milled/ground (use whatever term floats your boat) than any Griswold. Early Lodge, Sydney Hollowware, BSR, and even some bottom gated stuff had absolutely beautiful grinding. Without any objective, quantifiable evidence it can only be conjecture based on personal experience as to whether the cast iron produced by Wagner was somehow inferior to others. I'm quite happy with all of the cast iron I have whether it was made by Wagner, Griswold, Lodge, or BSR, but the newest stuff I have was made in the early 70s when even Lodge was still making good stuff. (I wouldn't give ya 2 cents for anything Lodge makes today although I read a rumor somewhere the other day that they may start grinding some of their stuff again so that could change my opinion.)

This is not to say that I think Wagner was better than Griswold, but I don't believe the quality was any less. I wouldn't trade my #10 Wagner for a second series #10 Erie, but I'd sure like to have one! Conversely, I wouldn't trade my Griswold #8 Chicken Pan with button logo lid for a Wagner #8 Deep Skillet with ringed cover. As long as it's quality, and I believe there is a lot of quality CI out there regardless of maker, I'd be happy with it and especially so if it's old quality.
 
Just a thought: Most of these items were made in a day when distribution of products wasn't what we're used to seeing nowadays. I think that might have had an effect on manufacture. My Wagner pans make me very happy in use, but the day I have to choose just one to keep, the no. 8 "Sidney" I cleaned up last Summer will be what I take!
 
It is clear that more than one maker, early in their production of cast iron hollow ware, "borrowed" from others, Sidney, Wagner, and Wapak (notoriously) among them. But Wagner moved beyond those audacious beginnings to create its own patented designs and produce an extensive line of quite fine, original products. Not sure where these claims of Wagner shortcomings originate from exactly. They certainly weren't out to undercut Griswold prices; mid-1920s catalogs from each show regular skillets priced the same, to the penny in fact. Wagner dutch ovens, with the addition of a trivet Griswold DOs included, actually cost more than Griswold's. Wagner may have lagged behind Griswold progress somewhat in the first decade or so of the 20th century, but ca. 1930 on up through the 50s, there was certainly parity between the two.
 
Not that Griswold was perfect, but one may notice they were not know for ‘borrowing’ designs and ideas from other US hollowware makers. As the leader Griswold did the development and Wagner was always playing catch up. Take waffle irons and hinges. Wagner never did put one out as good as Griswold and used troublesome wood handles way past their time. Take breakfast skillets. OK Wagner, put the handle on the wrong side so it isn’t an exact copy.

Between the two companies, who put out unmarked pieces? Who put out the most fragile cast iron? Who put out the pieces that could have used a little more edge machining? Which large skillet has the most intense hot spot? Who went for price cutting in the 30’s & 40’s? Who has the products that have increase in value the most? Why? Who was the Oldsmobile and who was the Chevy? Etc.

Yes, Wagner may have been competitive for a while, but I can’t use the term parity. Only one can be first.

Hilditch

OK Scott, you’re up.
 
Wagner designed and patented the corn stick muffin pan; Griswold played catch up with that one. Both made unmarked pieces. Griswold called theirs Iron Mountain. They also debranded Victor economy skillets to make a trio of unmarked skillets. The rest of the questions are interesting, but I haven't seen any widely-held opinions or concrete information supporting their implications. Can you provide documentation in support of the claims of inferior iron composition, sub-standard "edge machining" (not clear what that means exactly), and price cutting? Otherwise it just sounds like so much rhetoric.
 
I could provide historical references to the unmatched quality of the iron ore used by Griswold. I could also provide pictures of of rough/incomplete machining on Wagner skillets. As well as retail ad’s showing Wagner prices under comparable Griswold prices for the consumer.

However, I believe these would be picked apart and termed exceptions not having been validated by widely held opinions and it won’t change your opinion.

Sorry, I have no officially stamped documentation to support my case. I do believe former and present day pricing speaks for itself.

Hilditch
 
I've never driven a Mercedes but I've driven Fords and Chevys. While the Mercedes might be superior, the Ford is my choice. Why you ask? Because they both get you where you're going. But with this being said, when the Mercedes breaks down, you have to get a loan to pay for repairs but when the Ford breaks down, you head for the nearest Pick N Pull and you're on the road again.

Wagner while maybe not the best, they're affordable and they get you to the same place, good food.

Scott
 
I grew out of Fords in the 70’s and switched to Toyotas. Since then I’ve only driven by Pick N Pulls never having to stop. In the 60’s it was very important to have a friend who’s father was in the junk yard business. As far as getting where I’m going? The Toy is the most dependable, but a Ferrari is a lot more fun even if an oil change is $2,000.

Good food and fun is a hard combination to beat at any price.

I still prefer BSR & Lodge over Griswold for good food. Cooking in them is fun!

Hilditch
 
It would be interesting to see historical references to the unmatched quality of the iron ore used by Griswold that didn't come from Griswold marketing or weren't the expression of a journalist's hometown pride. I, too, could provide photos of rough/incomplete machining (if you mean side gate grinding) on some Griswold skillets I own. And Lodge, and BSR, and Wagner, too. I have a ton of ads and a bunch of catalogs, but I'm not seeing evidence of the price cutting claimed in any of them. The request wasn't for officially stamped documentation, just for any at all.
 
My request was: “So why the infatuation with Wagner?”

I’m not here to prove anything. I’m here to learn and share.

Hilditch
 
The question was preceded by, "I understand that over time Wagner stole ideas, robbed patterns, made copies and compared to Griswold had inferior machining, quality control and cast iron in an effort to put out a cheaper product.", and seems to be supplying your own answer. There must have been some pressing reason, one important enough to hijack another thread in order to bring it up. Please, share away.
 
The first was the Wagner & Griswold Society, then I found the book. Experience/research gleamed over the years told me the names should have been in reverse order. Griswold always felt better to me. Avis may have been better than Hertz, but they were always second. Copycat companies don’t impress me, but some win. I believe quality speaks for itself.

This has bothered me for years. Scott's post about a Wagner site stirred my wonderment again, so I thought I'd ask. So far, I'm reading cheaper.

Hilditch
 
I could provide historical references to the unmatched quality of the iron ore used by Griswold. I could also provide pictures of of rough/incomplete machining on Wagner skillets. As well as retail ad’s showing Wagner prices under comparable Griswold prices for the consumer.

However, I believe these would be picked apart and termed exceptions not having been validated by widely held opinions and it won’t change your opinion.

Sorry, I have no officially stamped documentation to support my case. I do believe former and present day pricing speaks for itself.

Hilditch

In another post in this thread you said you're here to learn and share. (I'm not smart enough to figure out how to put more than one quote in a post.) Please share. I'd like to learn, too.
 
Back
Top